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Following our first two interviews here and here, we wish to turn once again to esteemed luminary, political scientist and senior political advisor, Professor Sergey A. Karaganov* to discuss the topics of Russia's historic civilisations, Siberia and the process of Siberianisation, and the essence of a New Civilisational Platform for the Russian Federation.

 

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Russia's historical civilisations

 

HOPPE/ MARZBAAN: You mentioned in our last interview with you that Russia is the proud heir of two great civilisations – the Mongol and the Byzantine civilisations…

The Byzantine legacies…

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What did Russia inherit from Byzantium beyond Orthodox Christianity, other than its influence on the arts and architecture?

 

PROFESSOR KARAGANOV: Let me begin by saying that if we want to get to the deep origins of the identity of Russia, the Russians and other peoples of the Russian Empire and the USSR, as well as very many other peoples of Eurasia, we must go back to the end of the first millennium BC and the beginning of the first millennium AD. At that time, the vast spaces from Mongolia to the Carpathians and beyond, and then toward Iran and even India to the forests of today’s Russia were roamed by Scythian tribes that left a significant cultural layer and a huge number of burial mounds. The Scythians were a very interesting people. Unfortunately, they did not leave literary texts, although they left a lot of household items testifying to their high culture. There is also the famous Scythian gold. These tribes, which made up a soft empire, laid the foundation for most of the peoples in Central Eurasia from Mongolia through Iran, Phoenicia, Byzantium, and Southern Russia, approximately to present-day Hungary. The Scythians spoke a language that apparently had Eastern Iranic roots. Now we are rediscovering within ourselves these roots that unite us with the peoples of Eurasia.

Many Russian literary works are devoted to the Scythians. The Scythian heritage and passionarity were vividly embodied in Russian culture and ideology.

For some time, at the beginning or the middle of the first millennium, the Scythians were replaced by the Huns, who lived in an area stretching from approximately present-day northern Italy to Ukraine. They left a smaller mark on our culture, although the Huns terrified the whole of Europe.

At the end of the 8^th and beginning of the 9^th centuries, Ancient Rus’ had to choose its religion. There were three options: Judaism, Islam, and Christianity in its Byzantine version. The Russian princes, who baptized Russia, chose Byzantium, at that time the richest, the most developed and intellectually flourishing country in Central Eurasia, much more developed than Europe was. I believe it was much more developed than the Jewish or Muslim state associations. The Russian princes' astute choice of Byzantium largely predetermined Russian culture, Russian architecture, and, of course, Russian religion, that is, our Orthodoxy. We remained faithful to Orthodoxy even after Christianity had split into Orthodoxy and Catholicism. So to some extent, we are Old Believers in this sense and can even say that we are true Christians.

Byzantium gave us icon painting, architecture ― early pre-Mongol Russian architecture is magnificent, and, if we compare it with European architecture of that time, I am talking about the beginning of the last millennium, it looks, of course, much more beautiful, more sophisticated. It reveals a very strong Byzantine influence.

It was at that time that the Russian writing system came from present-day Greece. Greek monks ― Byzantines ― had the strongest influence on the formation of basic Russian culture. Early Russia frequently fought with Byzantium, but gained much more from it. Moreover, the so-called trade route from the Varangians to the Greeks, from Scandinavia to Byzantium, passed through Ancient Rus’, and it not only enriched the Russian lands but had the strongest influence on Russian culture.

The Mongol legacies…

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HOPPE/ MARZBAAN: The Mongol invasions of Asia are known to have been ruthless and devastating… And yet the PAX MONGOLICA that followed in territories under continued Mongol rule is said to have brought many beneficial developments, such as more extensive trade routes, increased cultural exchanges, and scientific and technological developments, etc.

Moreover, the occupation of Eastern Europe by the Golden Horde even led to the unification of Russia: before Mongol rule, the Russian-speaking peoples of the region lived in scattered city-states, and in order to free themselves from the Mongol yoke, they had to unite. And the Silk Road flourished in this period.

But in mostly Western history books and in the general Western view today, the Mongols, the "Golden Horde" (only one of the many khanates of the Mongol Empire), "hordes" (which became a derogatory term for large groups) in general and often even the Tatars as a people (the origin of the designation "Tatar" being unclear, due to many different interpretations) are conflated and generally viewed as brutal and backward in all respects.

How would you describe the "encounter" of the Russians with the Mongols and later with the creation of the Golden Horde? How is the Mongol Empire seen today by most citizens of the Russian Federation today? Are there many divided views?

 

PROF. KARAGANOV: Until recently, the Russian interpretation of history was dominated by the Westernized view of the Mongol Empire. Modern Russian historiography began around the 18^th-19^th centuries and was very strongly influenced by Western culture, so everything that came from Asia was perceived negatively.

Until recently, this was the dominant narrative in Russian historical memory. Things began to change in recent decades. We are beginning to understand more and more that the Mongols did not only plunder Russia and delay its material development, but they also had a huge positive impact on Russia. Firstly, reliance on the Mongols allowed Grand Prince Alexander Nevsky, one of the most important heroes in Russian history, who reigned in the 13^th century, to defeat the Teutons. He chose the Mongols because they were religiously tolerant and more culturally open than the Teutonic Catholics. By that, he largely predetermined the course of Russia’s development. The Mongol Empire left a deep mark on Russian history also, because it was multicultural and very tolerant religiously, and this is where I think (although there is no complete agreement amongst historians on this matter) the Russians, the dominant people in the former Russian Empire and the USSR, inherited their unique cultural, religious, and national openness.

The Horde’s power was quite unique. Russia was its vassal, but the Horde did not interfere concretely in Russia’s internal affairs. Russia was a vassal but not a colony. The Mongols taxed, plundered, and delayed material development, but they did not delay cultural and spiritual development. Perhaps external pressure even spurred the development of core Russian culture around the Orthodox Church.

Nevertheless, there is still no complete agreement on this issue. Ethnic Russian nationalists reject our Mongolian roots in every possible way. So-called liberal Westerners, who would like Russia to align entirely with Europe, also reject this. As is often the case in history, and this is a historical irony, liberal Westerners and ultranationalists have closed their ranks in this regard. But the debate is on, and it greatly helps our spiritual development. I think that sooner or later, we will come to a more balanced view of the Mongol period. So far, this period has mainly been described as "the struggle of the Russian people against the Mongols".

In fact, the Russian national character was largely formed in their struggle against the Mongols, on the one hand, and against the Teutons and other potential invaders from the West, on the other. The Russian national character, the character of the warrior, was born in these struggles.

 

HOPPE/ MARZBAAN: Can you describe the “vertical power” and the "global thinking" inherited from the Mongols? And what else did Russia inherit from the Mongols?

 

PROF. KARAGANOV: I think there will be a reassessment of our Mongolian heritage, as I said. All the more so, because we are now turning, finally, to the East, but we will talk about this a little later. We are beginning to understand that we may not even have become who we are without this Mongolian heritage, and the Mongols gave us the concept of vertical power that helped Russia become a huge country, a de facto empire.

The Mongols left us a unique system of roadways, when envoys were able to travel on constantly changing horses from what is now China to what is now Hungary in just a few months. This is a very fascinating period in history, and we are studying it now. One of the most interesting discoveries, which I personally made only recently, is that the great Russian ruler, Alexander Nevsky, the prince who defeated the Teutons and founded the Russian state in many spiritual ways, at some point in 1247-1248, travelled to the capital of the Mongol Empire, Karakorum, for a jarlig [a written imperial decree] in order to rule.

Alexander Nevsky and maybe – but we don’t know this for sure – his father were the first Russian Siberians. He crossed almost all of southern Siberia and then lived in Karakorum for several months. The most interesting thing is that the crown prince of the Mongol Empire, Kublai Khan, or Hubilai, as he is known in Europe through Marco Polo, was in Karakorum at that moment. At that time, he was only a contender for the throne of the great khan. A few years after their almost certain meeting and perhaps even after many conversations, he became a great khan, a unifier of China, and the founder of the Yuan dynasty. So we have common historical roots with China. Neither Russian nor Chinese historians have so far delved into this period of our history. But this is an interesting task to tackle in the future.

 

HOPPE/ MARZBAAN: Can we perhaps utilise the positive aspects of the Pax Mongolica for a renaissance of Eurasia, for the BRICS, for a Multipolar World?

 

PROF. KARAGANOV: Apparently, our great capacity for complex thinking dates back to the time when Russia was part of the Mongol Empire, when it interacted with various peoples from China to present-day Eastern Europe via the Mongol Empire and before that via the common Scythian heritage, when the Russian princes travelled through almost all of Eurasia. It was our deepest root. This capacity for complex thinking was further developed from the 16^th century onwards,  when Russians headed for Asia again. This time, they crossed the Ural Range and undertook the conquest and development of Siberia, one of the most glorious episodes in Russian history, which ultimately established the greatness of Russia and its national character.44

Naturally, we can and should utilise the positive aspects of the history of Pax Mongolica and the Mongol Empire, in order to substantiate the unity of Eurasia. And, as I said at the beginning of our interview, we must rely just as much on the heritage of the Scythians, who were the forefathers of so many peoples in Greater Central Eurasia.

Eurasia is living through a renaissance, and, of course, we must study our common history, which is much richer than it seemed until now, when we, both in Russia and in Asia, largely looked at the world through the eyes of Europeans. We read European books and considered Byzantium dirty and backward. We in Russia even had the term “vizantiyshchina,” which meant intrigue and inefficiency, even though Byzantium was much more developed than Western Europe was back then.

But the Mongol Empire and the Scythians unite us with Iran, with the Phoenicians, with the Mongols, and with North India. In fact, they were, firstly, the most powerful empire in the history of humankind, and secondly, they laid the foundation for Eurasia to become the centre of the world, which it was during the Mongol Empire that, incidentally, offered protection to the Silk Road stretching from China to the West.

I am not sure that the legacy of the Mongol Empire can and should be used to substantiate the development of BRICS. After all, BRICS is a global phenomenon. It includes countries in Latin America and Africa, but our Mongolian heritage is very appropriate for substantiating the development of the SCO as well as pan-Eurasian development and the security system that we are starting to build.

Pagan roots and legacies…

HOPPE/ MARZBAAN: Before the Byzantines and Mongols came, the Rus‘ people were pagan (e.g. Prince Oleg the Wise, who laid the foundation for the state of Kievan Rus’) – thus Paganism is also a root of the Rus‘ Russian people (not to mention the root of non-Rus’ Russians)... Are there any positive "pagan legacies" for Russia today?

 

PROF. KARAGANOV: We have a huge number of national customs and holidays that connect us with the times when we were pagans. Many Christian, Orthodox holidays are directly related to holidays dating back to pagan times. In our country, if you look closely, you can obviously see pagan traditions often preserved in regions where Orthodoxy and even Islam formally prevail.

Moreover, in the last decades of the Soviet period and even now, the traditions of the "small peoples" [In the Russian Federation, "small peoples" (malye narody) refers to the 40 indigenous ethnic groups inhabiting the North, Siberia, and the Far East, particularly those with traditional lifestyles based on subsistence activities like fishing, reindeer herding, and hunting and local traditions receive wide support and have become much more popular. When traveling through the Urals and Siberia, I often met very dedicated, very educated, formally Orthodox people or even atheists, who nevertheless observe pagan holidays. But the most exciting and wonderful pagan holiday is Pancake Week in early spring, when we eat pancakes with all sorts of salted vegetables, salted fish, sweets and honey. This is the funniest holiday in Russia, and it is observed not only by Orthodox Christians, although it coincides in part with the Orthodox calendar, but it is also celebrated by our Muslim and Jewish brothers. It is a nationwide feast. It is a little unhealthy, of course, today to eat so many pancakes with all sorts of pickled vegetables, but it’s great fun.

Siberia and Siberianisation

 

HOPPE/ MARZBAAN: What is "Siberia" and how can it be defined today?

 

PROF. KARAGANOV: All over the world and, above all, in Europe, Siberia is associated with cold, vast spaces, uncomfortable life, and hard labour. Russia has a different attitude towards Siberia. In Russia, Siberia is also associated with cold – that’s true, even though Siberia is getting warmer: the zone of convenient agriculture is expanding there, and its climate is becoming milder. But, with regard to Russian identity and in Russian thinking, Siberia is mainly associated with boundless expanses and unlimited possibilities, but most importantly with freedom, volya. That’s Russian freedom ― freedom without borders, which we probably inherited from the Mongol Empire. For Russians, freedom means a movement towards vastitude, towards infinity, towards God.

The conquest and development of Siberia cannot be explained without God’s intervention. How could the Cossacks travel many thousands of kilometres from the Urals to Kamchatka in just 60 years? There is no explanation for this. They sought volya, something larger-than-life. They also sought, of course, "soft gold" ― furs ― but none of them became really rich. However, Siberia formed and strengthened the best features of the Russian national character: perseverance, industriousness, collectivism, internationalism, courage, and the pursuit of freedom.

 

HOPPE/ MARZBAAN: We know that Siberia is rich in many different kinds of resources and vast agricultural space, as well as a great mix of different peoples… so it already has a lot to give the rest of Russia.

Can you describe what else Siberia has to offer the rest of Russia – culturally, spiritually? Which city or cities do you believe will become the most active centres or future capitals of Siberia? And which cities would represent which activities?

 

PROF. KARAGANOV: Siberia is without a doubt a unique territory in terms of cultural, religious, and ethnic openness. In this sense, Siberia is, as some Russian writers say, the place where the best of the Russian character was brewed, that is, a combination of all the best and the strongest in it. Dozens of peoples and cultures co-existed in Siberia: Muslims, Buddhists, many pagans, and, of course, Orthodox Christians lived next to each other. For all of Russia and the whole world, Siberia should be an example of unique friendship amongst peoples, a unique alloy of different cultures ― South Asian, East Asian, Chinese, and European. It has everything.

My favourite memory of Siberia is when, a few years ago, I travelled to its first capital, the city of Tobolsk, founded in the 17^th century. I was invited to attend a classical organ performance at a local Catholic church. It had been built by exiles who apparently lived in Tobolsk after the Polish uprisings had been crushed and a large number of Poles had been exiled to Siberia. By the way, the detained Swedes and French, captured by Alexander I and Kutuzov, also lived there. So in this church, built in the century before last, we were greeted by the local Armenian community that had organized this organ recital. So we took our seats. It is quite a traditional and very beautiful Catholic church.

 A young man came out, he said that he was an Armenian and his father was a builder who had rebuilt this church 20 years earlier. It was then that this young man had decided to convert to Catholicism, although before that he had been an Orthodox believer. And then he sat down at the organ and started playing music by Bach, Mendelssohn, Handel, and Tchaikovsky. An Orthodox Armenian, who adopted Catholicism in the centre of Siberia, plays Bach and Handel for the Armenian community in a Polish church, and a group of visitors from Moscow… This is the essence of Siberia.

Siberia is also a unique ethnic “alloy.” When the Russians headed for Siberia, they, naturally, could not bring women with them at first and had to marry women from the local tribes. The only thing that was required of them was to baptize these women first. This is why the indigenous Siberians have both Turkic and Mongolian features inherited from the "small peoples" with whom the Russians intermarried. These "small peoples" still live and enjoy support in Siberia. Moreover, some of these peoples are growing in numbers, which is a unique experience for all humankind. Thus, there can be no such thing as racism in Siberia or anywhere else in Russia. Instead, there is multiculturalism, multiracialism, multi-religiousness, and incredible openness.

 

HOPPE/ MARZBAAN: What does the process of "Siberianisation" entail? Do you believe the attitude toward this has changed over the past years?

 

PROF. KARAGANOV: In the late 1990s, realizing the need for Russia’s turn to the East at a time when it was completely focused on the West, I tried to organise a group of people from the Russian elite in order to substantiate a new strategy for the development of Siberia. We released several reports, but the idea didn’t take off. By the end of the 2000s, my young colleagues and I had started a new project, which was later called “The Eastern Turn.” Using economic calculations and historical studies, but primarily economic calculations, we demonstrated that a turn to the East, to Asia, was necessary, not just because the situation in the West would inevitably deteriorate – which I did not tell anyone back then as it was simply dangerous – but also because new markets were likely to open for Russia in the East and in the South. Fortunately, our calculations and reports – along with those of Sergei Shoigu, who is now our Security Council Secretary, and of his associates – were acted upon. And in the early 2010s, President Putin announced the first Eastern Turn, and so it began.

That Eastern Turn was partially successful. Suffice it to say that in 2009, European markets accounted for 56-58% of Russian trade turnover, and we were unilaterally dependent on them. By the beginning of the 2020s, their share had decreased to 35%, and Asia’s share had doubled. This helped us persevere though our confrontation with the West, which began in the early 2010s but escalated in 2022.

But now Russia is facing a much more ambitious task from my point of view: the spiritual, cultural, political, and economic development of Russia in the eastern direction to the Urals and Siberia. The western direction of our policy and economic ties has bleak prospects.

Naturally, we would like to restore some of our economic ties with Europe, and we were not the ones who ruptured them… they were and are being broken by distraught European elites who seek total isolation and self-isolation in order to stir up military hysteria in their countries. They were broken by the Americans who wanted to make Europe even more dependent on them. This rupture does not benefit us, yet it has yielded some positive aspects: we have at last focused on ourselves, and we are getting rid of the comprador elite, Western-centrism, and Westernism. However, we should not only rid ourselves of such things, we should also move forward.

Our future depends on our "return home", and Russia’s home since the 16^th-17^th centuries has been Siberia, of course. There would be no Russia as a great state and as a multinational unique nation without the development of Siberia. This is why we need to shift our efforts there now, especially as Siberia is becoming a much more pleasant place to live, due to climate change. There are new, fantastic opportunities opening up there for the development of agriculture. And Siberia’s mineral and water wealth are absolutely unique. This is why we are currently demonstrating and proving to ourselves that the many roots of both the Russian national character and of Russian history are in Siberia.

Thus, by returning to Siberia after our western journey – which Peter the Great embarked upon more than 300 years ago and which peaked in the 1990s, when part of our elite lost their minds and rushed headlong to Europe – we are balancing our spiritual, economic, and political orientation. This is what we call “Siberianization”.

But we are certainly not forsaking our European cultural roots. We appreciate them. Moreover, many of us believe that we remain true Europeans now that Europe is abandoning its traditional roots, Christianity, and moral values. We are becoming who we were and should be, the way the Lord made us; hence the tremendous efforts of our people who moved beyond the Urals and who built the Trans-Siberian Railway. We are becoming the northern Eurasian people who we have always been, but at some point, chose to forget. Thus, Siberianization also means returning home, to our true selves.

One element in the process of the Siberianization of Russia is the creation of a third Russian capital, which is absolutely necessary. The first one is political and largely industrial, that is Moscow; the second one, St. Petersburg, is cultural. But we need a third capital. Once we thought it should be in the Far East, but now everything looks much clearer, it needs to be created in Central Siberia, with some of the ministries, departments, and the headquarters of major corporations who run operations in Siberia to be moved there. President Vladimir Putin has already taken relevant decisions in response to our initiative.

I will not try to determine where the new capital should be located. This is something for our economists and politicians to decide. From my point of view, it should not be in one of the large Siberian cities, which already attract a large number of people. It should be somewhere near a large city, a large communication and transport hub. We will decide. We are now preparing a special report in which we will compare the pros and cons of different regions and different locations for a new capital.

I think the best place is the Minusinsk Basin. It is a paradise where peaches and apricots grow, 600 km north of Krasnoyarsk. But this place is not very convenient in terms of transport. So we will have to think about it.

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Needless to say, I really fell in love with the first capital of Siberia, the city of Tobolsk, which houses Siberia’s only Kremlin built in the 17^th century, very beautiful with magnificent cathedrals. Once a very rich city, it has partially lost its central role, unfortunately. It was a very important hub on the Northern Silk Road from China in the 17^th–19^th  centuries. The Trans-Siberian Railway bypassed it. So for a century, it lost its centrality. Plus, from my point of view, it is too close to the centre of Russia. Still, I would like a new capital to be even farther east. And yet, Tobolsk, with its unique beauty and history, is the most obvious place for a third capital. It may become that one day.

Tobolsk is rapidly reviving now due to a powerful industry, with various plants created there recently. The city is going through a renaissance. I often visit it, and we have launched a special event there: The Tobolsk Readings, on the Siberianization of Russia. The first readings took place in Tobolsk. Additional events will be held in other cities of Siberia and Central Russia, but they will still be called The Tobolsk Readings.

 

HOPPE/ MARZBAAN: How can Russia free or protect itself more from Western influence and its insidious "soft power"? How can the eurocentrism of some of the Russian elites be overcome? Why do you think some fear or reject the Asian aspects of Russia?

 

PROF. KARAGANOV: This attitude is rapidly changing, it began to change in the decade before last, but the open confrontation with the West in 2022 provided the most powerful incentive. This is basically a war with the West in Ukraine, where the West is using the unfortunate and deceived Ukrainian people as cannon fodder.

Eurocentrism is rooted quite deeply in Russian consciousness, as well as in the minds of many other peoples around the world who were under the influence of Europe, which dominated world history for 500 years and whose dominance began to shrink only a few decades ago. Now this process has intensified. We still have a lot of work to do to understand who we are and to restore our true Russian identity.

Russia is objectively freeing itself from harmful Western influences. As I have said before, one of the goals of the special military operation, of the war with the West in Ukraine, is our mental, political, and economic liberation from Western influence, which has become not only obsolete but also very harmful because, apart from neo-colonialism, racism, and everything that was previously connected with it, the West is now promoting post-human and anti-human values such as the LGBT agenda, ultra-feminism, the denial of history, transhumanism, and so on.

We need not completely abandon our European heritage, after all, it gave us a lot, and we would not have become a country of great culture without European influence. It spawned 19^th century Russian literature, an alloy of traditional Russian and high European culture. Pushkin, Dostoevsky, and Tolstoy would probably not have been born if there hadn’t been European influence. Europe gave us much and enriched us. But now we no longer need it. We acquired everything we could and even more than we needed.

I have already said and written more than once that we should have completed our European journey a century ago, before the First World War, in which we got embroiled in playing European games. We should have done it before Bolshevism and the bloody revolution, before we borrowed "vulgar Marxism" that had many very grave consequences for our country. Many in Russia are still, of course, afraid of Asianism. This might be a sign of backwardness and squalor of the mind. I speak and write about this without mincing words. In conversations with my friends and colleagues, I often hear them say that we do not understand Asia and we do not know Asia. I agree that many of us do not understand or know Asia, but if we see this as a merit, then it would be no different from a blind person being proud of his blindness. We must open our eyes and see that Asia is a cluster of great cultures and great civilizations that have given us so much to absorb.

For many years, other countries, but also our own Westernizers, cultivated here the fear of Asia, of the "Yellow Peril". For example, they claimed until recently that almost three or even more million Chinese live in Russia. There are less than ten times fewer of them, maybe even too few. As I have said before, I wish we had more Chinese chefs in our restaurants.

Anti-Asian sentiment in Russia was purposefully kindled and stoked by the West and liberal, Westernized Russians. Fortunately, their time has passed, and many of them simply fled after the start of the war, and we cleared our country of this scum. But I repeat, while turning to Asia, the South, and the East, we must not forget our magnificent European roots. We must move towards the future, towards being what history intended us to be ― a great northern Eurasian power, a unifier and balancer of Greater Eurasia.

 

The Pursuit of a New Civilisational Platform

 

HOPPE/ MARZBAAN: In your recent epic article "To Eurasia with Intellectual Freedom", you describe the many aspects of Russia's "Turn to the East", and you also speak of Russia's need for a spiritual rebirth and for its need to adopt a new, core identity – based on its rich and multifarious historical roots, as well as on its multifarious peoples, cultures, beliefs of today – in order to better unite all its peoples into a new harmonious future. You call the pursuit of this national identity Russia's "Idea-Dream". You have, for a while now, organised several study groups to come up with some ideas for a "New Civilisational Platform" for the Russian Federation… one that might even be of great inspiration for a "Civilisational Platform" for the Global Majority…

In that article, you wrote that "the economy should turn from the core and master of state strategy into a respected servant. People should become the ends rather than the means of development, the purpose of state policy and public life, and not just as individuals, but as citizens ready to work for a common cause." Is a "preliminary" economic system being considered? Neoliberal capitalism has failed and was never a just system for the People… what could substitute it?

 

PROF. KARAGANOV: This is the most difficult question. It is clear that the neoliberal capitalist system has failed and is dragging us down and back. But the socialist model did not work very well either. We need to think about another civilizational platform that would use capitalist business practices but would at the same time be geared towards facilitating human development and protecting nature, and what is known as the noosphere in Russian philosophical language, that is, the unity of man and nature.

But most importantly, I think that we in Russia, and maybe other people in the world, should focus on the development of the human being ― his intellectual, spiritual, and physical development ― not just as an individual, but as a person who serves the family, society, the country, the state, and God. First of all, we need to focus on self-improvement. This is embedded in almost all religions and all codes of ethics. We must take these ideas from the world’s spiritual and philosophical heritage and make them our top priority. This is a daunting task, but I think this should be the cornerstone of Russia’s new Idea-Dream – a Russian Citizen’s Code for himself, for his country, and the world. We are working on it, and we will implement it through concrete policies. But this must be mainly done through public discussion, of course, and then through education. This requires essentially another civilizational platform, although many elements of this civilizational platform were laid down by the best humanists and philosophers, and they lie at the heart of most religions.

 

HOPPE/ MARZBAAN: You have often mentioned that there were positive aspects of the Soviet system… What aspects of the Soviet system would you like to see retained or re-instated in a new "Civilisational Platform"?

 

PROF. KARAGANOV: The Soviet system failed primarily because it was based on an inefficient economic policy that rejected private ownership and personal economic interest. Nevertheless, what distinguishes it from other totalitarian ideologies is that it had a strong humanist core. The creation of the Soviet socialist system rendered capitalism in the West and the rest of the world somewhat more humane, open, and progressive for some time. There emerged a so-called “social capitalism” that allowed societies in many countries to make great headway in their development.

After the Soviet Union collapsed, due to its own reasons and geopolitical failures, we saw a rapid degradation of social systems around the world. What was good in the Soviet Union? Certainly, its universal, free and excellent education system. We are now restoring it, but with great difficulty. Fortunately, it works at the secondary school level, which is, however, supplemented with private schools, and we are working to provide more opportunities to people from poor families so that they can get the best higher education. The Unified State Exam system helps, but there is still a long way to go.

We also need a free healthcare system, or at least free basic healthcare. We are now creating something similar through different structures.

The only thing that should not be restored from Soviet times is, of course, its homogenization of thought. This is what destroyed the Soviet Union when communist homogenization of thought narrowed minds. Burdened with a so-called Marxist-Leninist philosophy and political economy, we really did not understand what was happening in our country and in the world. So, to a large extent, this was the reason why the Soviet Union collapsed. And, of course, in no case should we restore the ways in which the Soviet system was imposed. In fact, the early Bolsheviks were guided by outwardly humanist ideas, but they used brutal methods to install them, including mass repressions and collectivization, which was carried out in order to break the peasantry’s backbone in the first place.

 

HOPPE/ MARZBAAN: How do you see the role and function of religion in Russia today?

 

PROF. KARAGANOV: I cannot say that Russia has completely overcome its anti-religious past that was imposed on it under the Soviet Union when the Bolsheviks tried to replace religious consciousness with their ideology, with "a new communist religion", by officially promoting atheism and suppressing religious feelings and faith. They closed most of the churches – there were only a few remaining open in the whole country, and they executed hundreds of thousands of clergymen – Christian, Muslim, and Jewish. This happened in the early days of the Soviet Union.

The Bolsheviks only partially succeeded in their aim to destroy religious consciousness because the main postulates of communist ideology were based on God’s commandments. But the fact that they destroyed faith caused us enormous moral damage, which we are just beginning to repair now…

I believe that we need to make a deliberate effort in order to restore our faiths – but not in an obligatory manner. Every person can and should believe as he pleases; what matters is that he should be a good human being, and I think man was created in order to serve his family, his community, his country, and the state, if it is Russia, humanity, and God – if he is a believer.

Faith in God also means faith in the best that the human has within. After all, God created us in His own image ― this is the basis of all religions. So by striving for God, we strive for the best version of ourselves, especially since all religions ― Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, and Judaism ― promote the best in man… that is: morality, virtue, honour, dignity, and love for one another. If a man strives for such things, then he is a "godly man", even if he does not believe in God.

Now there is a slow but obvious revival of religion in Russia. Tens of thousands of Orthodox churches and thousands of mosques have been restored or built anew. The number of believers is growing.

So, Christianity and Orthodoxy are returning to Russia, but Russia has never been, will not be, and cannot be solely Christian. And I do not think that Russia should become a solely Christian country. The more different faiths there are in it, the better. At the same time, we should clearly understand that the fundamental Russian faith is Orthodox Christianity, which united the people and the vast Empire, and it should be supported in the first place – but without ousting other denominations. I hope that Orthodox Christianity will increase its influence in Russia. I can already see that happening, and I am helping this process. But I believe that society and the state should encourage all religious denominations, or, in any case, all traditional religious denominations united in their service to people, the family, society, and the state.

Russia is a unique and outstanding fusion of different religions, different cultures, and different ethnic groups. This is its main strength and its main distinction from the vast majority of other countries.

This revival of faith is associated, among other things, with the spiritual revival of Russia, although I am not sure that Russia will become as religious a country as it was historically. After all, the communist past delivered a very strong blow, plus modern culture largely distracts from religious consciousness.

Today, religion in Russia is separated from the state. In the past, when the church was not separated from the state, it led to the weakening of this state – this was already obvious in the 19^th and the early 20^th centuries. But state policy indirectly facilitates the revival of all traditional faiths and helps churches. And the churches in return help the state and people in their spiritual, economic, and political revival.

I have a house in a remote village; next to it stands a church that we have recently restored, and I see now that this church has become a cultural centre for the development of the village. People gather around the church, hold events, organize children’s holidays, and collect parcels for soldiers fighting on the western front in Ukraine.

 

HOPPE/ MARZBAAN: And what are the chances of Russia returning to a monarchy with a tsar at the head? And what would Russia look like if it were only Christian?

 

PROF. KARAGANOV: I don’t think that Russia will return to a monarchy, although many elements of the monarchy and enlightened authoritarianism are visibly present in the current Russian system of government.

Putin is an elected president, but people perceive him as an enlightened sovereign. We have monarchists, but I don’t think the monarchy can be restored.

What is quite clear though, is that for a country like Russia, traditional European democracy does not fit in. In Russia, there must be strong democratic elements, especially at the local level, and some electoral democracy in order to connect society and the authorities. But, at the very top, I think, there should be a system of transfer of power that would be legalized by popular vote, a nationwide referendum.

In such a complex and tough world we now live in and will live in, a constant change of leadership is prohibitively expensive, so it is better to ensure a “seamless” transition of power from one leader to another. But this, of course, is a difficult and challenging process, and we have just entered it. So far, this process has been successful: the transfer of power from Yeltsin to Putin and from Putin to Medvedev and back was extremely successful and ensured the stable development of the country.

Western-style modern democracy is obviously doomed. This system is only beneficial for very wealthy countries in very comfortable external circumstances. Russia will never live in very calm circumstances, and although its well-being is growing, it will never be too wealthy. We must know and remember that in hard times and dire circumstances ― this is history ― democracies always perish. Let me remind you that the Greek republics were replaced by despotism, the Roman one turned into an empire, the North Italian republics were taken over by monarchies, our Pskov and Novgorod Republics fell, the French Republic was replaced by an empire, German Weimar democracy got Hitler, with almost all European democracies surrendering to him, and only the enormous and unflinching determination of the Soviet Union and its willingness to make every sacrifice saved Europe from becoming a German colony and speaking German.

Nowadays, democracies are once again going through hard times, as there is a global capitalism crisis, and contradictions are deepening. We see authoritarianism rising in many societies in its worst forms. But I do not advocate a restoration of the monarchy in Russia. Our own history and the history of other countries have proved that monarchies are not always an effective form of government; apparently their time has passed. On the other hand, an enlightened monarchy with a strong aristocracy is perhaps the most effective mode of governance, but we are unlikely to return to it again. So when someone asks me: “Do you want a return of the monarchy?” I say: “Yes, but only if I am the monarch.” This is a joke.

 

HOPPE/ MARZBAAN: In a speech in June 2024 to an audience of soldiers fighting in the SMO, President V.V. Putin highlighted that: "We are a multicultural country, and a multi-religious one. […] That's our strength that no one can beat! […] …no matter what ethnic group we belong to, we have been living on the same land for more than 1000 years!"

Nevertheless, we have read that there are some who dream of a Tsarist Russia and others dream of a Russia that is solely Christian (some people have been quoted as saying: "Russia only for the Russians" and "Russia only for Christ")… and yet many Russians of "non-Rus'-Russian" origin sacrifice their lives or their own personal safety in the SMO for their motherland Russia. (Recent notable examples are: Commander Tamerlan A. Ilhamov of Bashkortostan, RT producer and journalist Magomed Buchaev of Dagestan, Officer Zakarya Aliyev from Dagestan and Corporal Andrey Grigoryev from Yakutia.) What greater demonstration of true patriotism exists than to be prepared to sacrifice one's safety, one's life for one's motherland!

So, what can one do on a domestic national level for the non-Rus' Russians (who may also not be of the Russian Orthodox faith or who may not even believe in a God) so that they could also be seen as full members of Russian society (as there are some who say "Russia only for the Russians" and "Russia only for Christ")?

  

PROF. KARAGANOV: The special military operation has once again emphasized the unique unity of the Russian people. People of different faiths and different ethnic backgrounds are fighting there together. A new brotherhood is being born and strengthened there. True, there are ethnic Russian nationalists, but they are and should be the exception. And from my point of view, they are the greatest internal threat to our country. It is no coincidence that our opponents used to rely on pro-Western liberals before, but now they are going out of their way to exaggerate to incite ethnic Russian nationalism, also by playing up the migration problem. Migration is poorly managed in our country. This is a big problem that needs to be solved. However, ethnic nationalism is not just a problem but a threat. Every person and the entire society must fight it. I think that those who say that "Russia only for the Russians" are enemies of our country. Those who say that Russians are only Christians are not enemies of Russia, they are simply deeply mistaken. I myself am an Orthodox Christian precisely because this religion unites most of my people. But I read the Koran, I read the Talmud, I read the holy books of other religions, and I believe that such openness, cultural and religious openness, is the best feature of the Russian people.

There was a Russian writer by the name of Yuri Tynyanov, who lived at the beginning of the last century. He was a wonderful writer, not very famous, but quite brilliant. And he coined a phrase, a definition of a Russian, that sounds, I thin,k amazingly interesting: “The Chancellor of the Russian Empire, Count and Baron Erich Maria Ivan Vasilyevich Nesselrode was born by a Jewish mother and a German father aboard a Spanish galleon en route from London to Lisbon.” Half-jokingly and half-seriously, I call it the best definition of a Russian.

 

HOPPE/ MARZBAAN: Russia has over 193 ethnic groups nationwide, and these ethnic groups share a land, a language and the same modern history. Are there other binding elements amongst them?

 

PROF. KARAGANOV: I am very proud that my country is a kind of cosmos, an example for all humankind. It is unique, multi-religious, multi-cultural, and multi-ethnic, and yet it is united. It is united by common codes of ethics, common history, the Russian language, and great Russian culture, of course, but without suppressing other cultures.

On the contrary, the cultures of the "small peoples" are supported in every possible way. In this sense, we do not want to impose our example on anyone, but it seems to me that we demonstrate to all humankind how different cultures, different ethnic groups, and different faiths can cohabitate in a single community.

I am happy to travel around our country, where there are Christian and Muslim communities, many unbelievers, and even pagans who are looked upon very positively, and many people, even Christians and Muslims, enjoy celebrating old pagan holidays together and observe old pagan customs.

Racism is alien to Russia due to its history. In this sense, it is unique among huge empires. This is also a wonderful feature of our country, which is why we can offer ourselves as an example, but certainly without imposing ourselves on other countries and all humankind.

What matters is that we are Russians, citizens of the old Rus', the Russian Empire, the USSR, and today’s Russia. I frequently write that Russians are Great Russians – descendants of the peoples that lived in Central Russia Old Rus'; Russians are Ukrainians; Russians are Belarusians; Russians are Tatars; Russians are Kalmyks; Russians are Yakuts; Russians are Jews; Russian are Bashkirs; Russians are Armenians; etc. We are all Russians or Rossiyane [Россияне], which is difficult to translate into English. In any case, we are a single community ― this was predestined by history, and we have furthered ourselves this way. Under no circumstances should we lose this unique feature of our civilization ― cultural, religious, and ethnic openness. The great Dostoevsky said once that “Russians are probably the most open people in the world.”

 

HOPPE/ MARZBAAN: As we have seen throughout history and continue to see today, there exist peoples who live for something more than money, acquisitions, fame… for more than even their own personal survival… which cannot be said of the bulk of Western civilisation. Examples with regard to Russia: in the recent past are the Leningraders and Stalingraders during the German Siege… and presently, the people of Donetsk and the soldiers engaged in the Special Military Operation. Do you believe that what they have been fighting for is an essential component for a New Civilisational Platform? And what do you believe is the essential component or components for a New Civilisational Platform?

 

PROF. KARAGANOV: People in Leningrad and Stalingrad fought and died, and people are now fighting in Donbass and in Ukraine against the West to serve our family, community, and country and to preserve the human in man.

This is a civilizational struggle against techno-barbarism and techno-paganism, against the new Nazism, against dehumanization.

I am proud to be a member of my fighting people. Russian culture and Russian civilization inherently imply that the highest goal of man is service. At some point, when we succumbed to Western civilization, this pushed us away from our essence and almost drove us to a tragedy. So I am glad that we are returning to our traditional values, including, of course, service to the family and society, love between a man and a woman, love for children, respect for the elderly, love for the Motherland, love for native nature, the pursuit of higher goals, service to the spirit… but not to Mammon. For all this, the Russian people need a strong state with a strong leader.

We are normal people, we want to live well, but we believe that the main goal of a person is to improve himself, to help others, to serve the best in himself, and therefore the Divine – even if he or she does not believe in God.

This is a new civilizational platform, which is ultimately quite traditional… so there is no need to invent something "new". One simply needs to preserve and develop one's best qualities inherited from the history of humankind and reject all the worst things that are being propagated by modern civilization and present-day globalist liberal imperialism, which is devoid of ethical roots, which by definition destroys individuality, morality and ethics… and ultimately destroys man himself, and our planet Earth – by imposing a boundless growth of consumption.

This is why a civilizational platform means service to the people, but to a people who are ready to serve others and the world.

*   *   *

 

* Professor Sergey A. Karaganov – a luminary of the Russian Federation with a long, illustrious career, who continues to hold many posts, amongst them: Honorary Chairman of the Council for Foreign and Defence Policy (Russia's leading public foreign policy organisation) and academic supervisor of the Faculty of World Economics and World Politics of the National Research University Higher School of Economics in Moscow.